tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post2822757461696782388..comments2023-10-15T04:55:00.368-05:00Comments on Angel Of Retribution: Fistful Of DiamondsJ. "יהוא בן יהושפט בן נמשי" Izraelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09751836004961760098noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-29871257772164539432009-02-11T11:36:00.000-05:002009-02-11T11:36:00.000-05:00You argue against yourself.You first stated that "...You argue against yourself.<BR/><BR/>You first stated that "It is <I><B>only</B></I> the internal ethic of the eligible person that prevents it from being so." (emphasis mine).<BR/><BR/>Maybe it was a typo and you meant it's <I>not</I> only a person's..., but I doubt it.<BR/><BR/>I never argued that personal moral has no role - venahfoch hu, I say it's very important, more important than laws and rules in a sense. But it's by far not the <B>only</B> thing that prevents crimes.<BR/><BR/>As you yourself write, people who otherwise wouldn't loot or steal do it when they join the herd, even though they know it's wrong (or the herd "convinces" them that it's not wrong)<BR/><BR/>"People don't rob banks or print fake money because they know they won't get away with it." Of course not. First they must convince themselves that it OK for them to do it, THEN they have to believe they won;t get caught. Think of it as approaching a stop sign. What you thing about is "is there a cop hiding somewhere", and not some Kantean philosophy about whether it's OK to run the stop sign.<BR/><BR/>"Whorehouses? They're around aplenty" Imeant in Satmar. They use the secular ones. <BR/>"(I'm NOT speaking from personal experience)" No? Agh, you don't know what you're missing! ;-)<BR/><BR/>"being hung out to dry by the wife keeps many guys out." And again you shoot your argument down with a 12ga shotgun. So it's the fear of the wife, and not their famed "personal internal ethic" that keeps them out.<BR/><BR/>And here comes the grand finale: "point is that it is only fear of punishment that keeps many (not all) people from becoming complete savages." Which is the exact opposite of your initial claim.<BR/><BR/>My point is there is a strong need for very strong internal moral/ethic/discipline, coupled with a strong and as effective as possible law system. Because in the final analysis those writng and enforcing the laws are also humans and corruptible, and also need morals/ethics as well as policing.<BR/>TC now.J. "יהוא בן יהושפט בן נמשי" Izraelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09751836004961760098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-62857483234054347032009-02-11T08:20:00.000-05:002009-02-11T08:20:00.000-05:00> it's NOT It's only a person's int...> it's NOT It's only a person's internal conscience that prevent him from abusing the system<BR/><BR/>Yes it is. A person's conscience may give him a sense of guilt at trying to cheat the system. Or it may fill him with a sense of fear at the consequences of getting caught. But it's also the inner voice that matters.<BR/><BR/>Look at New Orlean's after Katrina or LA after Rodney King. People who otherwise would normally never loot and riot joined in with gusto as the social order broke down. With no police to stop them, they committed acts they never would have if they thought they would suffer some kind of punishment.<BR/><BR/>People don't rob banks or print fake money because they know they won't get away with it. And since we see bank robberies and counterfeit schemes all the time it shows there are people who think they will so they try. Whorehouses? They're around aplenty (I'm NOT speaking from personal experience)but fear of getting caught and being hung out to dry by the wife keeps many guys out. Not all, I'll grant you, because for many they have an inner voice that provides moral direction but my point is that it is only fear of punishment that keeps many (not all) people from becoming complete savages.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-68835999494656452172009-02-05T11:20:00.000-05:002009-02-05T11:20:00.000-05:00I had a teacher telling us befor every test "mutar...I had a teacher telling us befor every test "mutar lehaatik, assur lehitafes" (it's permitted to cheat, it's forbidden to get caught.)<BR/>But you see, it's <B>NOT</B> <I>It's only a person's internal conscience that prevent him from abusing the system</I>. Why do you think there scores of ther things humans are inclined to do and still don't do them? Why don't they simply rob banks, print money, have whorehouses, aren't there treif restaurants and cabs operating on shabbos openly in KJ? Because certain laws are enforced, as are societal norms. So it's not just one's <I>personal</I> ethics. When a society accepts something it becomes OK, just like it's OK for Hamas to raise children for suicude bomber fodder. That is the great problem here.<BR/><BR/>BTW, why aren't you the leader anymore? ;-)J. "יהוא בן יהושפט בן נמשי" Izraelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09751836004961760098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-27416325829997078032009-02-05T09:34:00.000-05:002009-02-05T09:34:00.000-05:00I'm not sure we disagree because I don't have a pr...I'm not sure we disagree because I don't have a problem with anything you wrote.<BR/><BR/>My point was this: There is an old maxim that "it's only illegal if you get caught". There is also a saying in Israel the chilonim use to describe chareidim who cheat the system in violation of halacha: "Zot hadat, aval zeh haesek." That's religion but this is business.<BR/><BR/>It's only a person's internal conscience that prevent him from abusing the system. A person can learn all the Torah they want but without a moral compass, it matters nought. They will abuse the system and engage in denial to justify how what they're doing isn't against Torah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-7657015942135748362009-02-04T18:15:00.000-05:002009-02-04T18:15:00.000-05:00Garnel, this time I totally disagree with you.It&#...Garnel, this time I totally disagree with you.<BR/><BR/>It's very far from just one's "internal ethic" that prevents from doing dishonest, and very often outright illegal things. Besides, it's irrelevant. They do someting that's ossur, forbidden, disgusting, repulsive, and it comes at other's expense. <BR/><BR/>The fact that times change changes nothing. Time has passed at the same rate since since it begun. What changes is the circumstances and situations, but the basics are the same: it's forbidden to kill, steal, rape, humiliate others, eat fleishig and milchig together and drive on shabbos. We live in human history's most abundant period - it got rid of many challenges, and created new ones.<BR/><BR/>These people cheat because it is easy and they bribe politicians with bloc voting.<BR/>The answer to that is called term limits and protests from honest rabbis (a rare specimen indeed). <BR/><BR/>I'm not saying I'm perfect, I wish I'd be even 80% honest. But turning yiddishkeit into a posh-fest with a shtreimel is simply stomach turning - even if the money is made honestly. Kal vachomer ben bnoi shel kal vachomer when it's outright stolen from the taxpayer.<BR/><BR/>And yes, the government if fully complicit in this. There can be a lot of preventive measures. Such as better & more effective unemployment insurance. Requirement for all women on most programs to have permanent birth control installed for as long as they're on the program. And to stop illegal immirgation so people can make a normal living from menial jobs, instead of diluting education and the value of true degrees.<BR/><BR/>Hille hazokein was a lumberjack, and spent most of his time studying Torah. Do you think his wife strutted around in monk coats, rubys and $5000 shaitels?<BR/><BR/>(BTW, what Canada does is irrelevant, and I was talking medicaid, not medicare. Which is also abusable and abused, but it's the least of the problems)J. "יהוא בן יהושפט בן נמשי" Izraelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09751836004961760098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-65957719538519790002009-02-04T11:24:00.000-05:002009-02-04T11:24:00.000-05:00First of all, side point: The Canadian medical sys...First of all, side point: The Canadian medical system is more indulgent than Medicare in the States. Immigrants to Canada generally worry about getting a health card before any other official document, then they go for a drug benefit card, and then they go for things like food and shelter.<BR/><BR/>But the main point is: the system exists and it is abusable. It is only the internal ethic of the eligible person that prevents it from being so. A single mom could be offered a low end job that pays slightly more than welfare but which includes daycare. Or she could stay at home on welfare for a few pennies an hour less. Which is she to choose? The choice she makes says what kind of a person she is. <BR/>It's the same with any large group, chasidim included. Time was Jews took pride in supporting themselves without having to rely on "the system". Times seem to have changed, and it's the people who don't admit that times can change that are taking advantage of it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31381625.post-81141332700461053092009-02-02T23:59:00.000-05:002009-02-02T23:59:00.000-05:00Wow, I've got to say that this is the most brillia...Wow, I've got to say that this is the most brilliant, clearheaded, and honest assessment of the state of affairs in the ultra-orthodox world today.<BR/><BR/>Our no-nonsense hardworking ancestry of yore are rolling in their graves right about now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com